Edwin Vlieg

I pay for software I barely use. Just because I love how it's designed.

My accountant has me on Exact Online for bookkeeping. It works. But the UX is so ugly I refuse to create invoices there.

So I pay for Moneybird every month — just to use one feature: invoicing.

I could skip it entirely. Save the money. But I don't want to. The brand, the experience, the attention to detail — it makes me want to open the app.

That's the power of great design in B2B.

And that's why I had to get Edwin Vlieg on the podcast.

Edwin is the co-founder of Moneybird — the #1 bookkeeping software for entrepreneurs in the Netherlands. 400,000+ users. 80-person team. 17 years bootstrapped.

🧠 𝗪𝗵𝗮𝘁 𝘆𝗼𝘂'𝗹𝗹 𝗹𝗲𝗮𝗿𝗻:

0:00 - How Moneybird started in 2008 when everything was on-premise
2:38 - The market back then and why competitors didn't survive
5:19 - Starting with invoicing, not accounting (and why that mattered)
7:32 - Why they built for entrepreneurs, not accountants
10:26 - The positioning that made them #1 in the Netherlands
14:44 - Design culture and team structure at Moneybird
16:21 - How ShapeUp works with rotating teams (and why it prevents silos)
24:51 - Why process is the product that builds the product
29:16 - How they decide what to build next (hint: no feature backlog)
31:26 - Framing vs shaping: how they avoid wasting time on bad ideas
33:46 - Phased rollouts with feature flags and the surprising feedback they got
41:43 - Why good ideas bubble up and you don't need a backlog
44:15 - Support engineer rotation: why builders should feel their own bugs
45:24 - Their approach to AI: rule-based engines + AI, not pure hype
50:06 - Redesigning purchase invoices with AI (and what users did that they never expected)
56:56 - Why they launched an MCP instead of building a chatbot
1:03:32 - Edwin's favorite products and the terminal UI movement

💡 𝗔𝗰𝘁𝗶𝗼𝗻𝗮𝗯𝗹𝗲 𝘁𝗮𝗸𝗲𝗮𝘄𝗮𝘆𝘀:

→ 𝗥𝗼𝘁𝗮𝘁𝗲 𝘁𝗲𝗮𝗺𝘀 𝗯𝗲𝘁𝘄𝗲𝗲𝗻 𝗽𝗿𝗼𝗷𝗲𝗰𝘁𝘀

Fresh eyes catch what the original team missed.

→ 𝗙𝗿𝗮𝗺𝗲 𝗯𝗲𝗳𝗼𝗿𝗲 𝘆𝗼𝘂 𝘀𝗵𝗮𝗽𝗲

If leadership isn't excited at the framing stage, don't waste weeks on detailed specs.

→ 𝗣𝗵𝗮𝘀𝗲𝗱 𝗿𝗼𝗹𝗹𝗼𝘂𝘁𝘀 𝘄𝗶𝘁𝗵 𝗳𝗲𝗮𝘁𝘂𝗿𝗲 𝗳𝗹𝗮𝗴𝘀

Start small. Get feedback. Scale to 100% after you've learned.

→ 𝗠𝗮𝗸𝗲 𝗯𝘂𝗶𝗹𝗱𝗲𝗿𝘀 𝗳𝗶𝘅 𝘁𝗵𝗲𝗶𝗿 𝗼𝘄𝗻 𝗯𝘂𝗴𝘀

When you might be fixing bugs next cycle, you ship better code this cycle.

→ 𝗦𝗸𝗶𝗽 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗯𝗮𝗰𝗸𝗹𝗼𝗴

Good ideas bubble up. No need for a graveyard of feature requests.

—-

Introduction

Jim Zarkadas (00:00)
Hey, I’m Jim, and this is the Love at First Try podcast — a podcast for SaaS CEOs and developers who truly want to learn more about design and actually care about it, but don’t want to deal with design being overly complex.

In every episode, we discuss how to design products that become sticky and unforgettable. We dive into topics like taste, UX, growth, and conversions, and we share practical tips and frameworks you can apply directly in your development process.

Enough with the intro — let’s dive into today’s episode.

Guest Introduction: Moneybird

Jim Zarkadas (00:27)
Welcome again to the podcast, and thanks for joining me. As always, we’ll start with a brief intro: who you are, what you’re building, and a bit of the story behind Moneybird. I’ll let you kick it off.

Edwin Vlieg (00:44)
Yeah — I’m looking forward to your questions.

Jim Zarkadas (00:47)
Go ahead and give us a brief intro. If I remember correctly, you’re not only technical — you’re also into product, strategy, sales, and marketing, right?

Edwin Vlieg (01:03)
I’m actually into everything. I’m a software engineer by trade, but I do pretty much everything.

Jim Zarkadas (01:09)
Perfect. Let’s start with your background and the story of Moneybird.

The Origin of Moneybird

Edwin Vlieg (01:16)
Sure. I’m Edwin, one of the co-founders of Moneybird. We started back in 2008. I have a background in software engineering and met my co-founder at university.

At the time, I was already running a freelance business and noticed recurring problems around invoicing — sending invoices on time, using the right text, correct codes, invoice IDs, all that. I was using Word and Excel, which quickly became frustrating.

So I decided to build something myself. That was the very early start of Moneybird. Over the years, it kept growing, mainly by listening closely to entrepreneurs using the software and understanding what they actually needed for their accounting.

Today, we’re almost 80 people based in Enschede, in the eastern part of the Netherlands, and we serve over 400,000 entrepreneurs.

Freemium Model & Early Market Context

Jim Zarkadas (02:11)
400,000 — wow. That’s impressive.

Edwin Vlieg (02:15)
Not everyone is a paying customer — we use a freemium SaaS model. From day one, we allowed people to send up to three invoices per month for free. That’s still used by many entrepreneurs who are just starting out. So we’re servicing over 400,000 users in total.

Jim Zarkadas (02:19)
You started in 2008 — I’m curious what the market looked like back then. Were you one of the first, or were there already alternatives?

Edwin Vlieg (02:38)
There were alternatives, but the market was completely different. Most solutions were on-premise software. You had to download and install it, and collaboration was difficult because accountants often hosted the software on their own servers.

We were growing up in a web-first world. Our freelancing work was already web-based, while accounting software was still stuck in the old model.

SaaS Inspiration & Local Focus

Edwin Vlieg (03:50)
We were inspired by SaaS companies in the US — things like Basecamp and Campfire from 37signals. There were also tools like FreshBooks (back then Canadian-based) doing invoicing really well.

Those tools weren’t localized for the Dutch market, so we translated that SaaS mindset into the Dutch ecosystem, where bookkeeping is very local due to regulations and tax systems.

Jim Zarkadas (04:34)
That’s the beauty of bookkeeping software — it’s inherently local. Timing really matters when building a company.

Edwin Vlieg (04:39)
Absolutely. We started small with invoicing, not full accounting. Accounting is very complex and feature-heavy. We focused on entrepreneurs’ core business processes first, then gradually moved into accounting as demand increased.

From Invoicing to Full Accounting

Edwin Vlieg (05:19)
Over the years, customers asked for more accounting features. Today, we’re on par with large accounting solutions like Exact, SnelStart, and Twinfield.

Jim Zarkadas (05:34)
As a user, one thing I really appreciate is how Moneybird teaches accounting concepts through the product. Things like asset depreciation feel approachable — not intimidating.

Edwin Vlieg (06:21)
Asset depreciation is a great example. It took us years to find the right way to implement it so that entrepreneurs could actually understand and use it.

We want even complex accounting features to be usable without relying entirely on an accountant. That’s why, for example, depreciation updates monthly in Moneybird, instead of once a year when an accountant gets to it.

Positioning: Entrepreneurs First

Jim Zarkadas (07:32)
You’ve mentioned a few times that you’re building for entrepreneurs, not accountants. How do you position Moneybird in the market, and what makes it different?

Jim Zarkadas (08:27)
From my perspective as a user, the brand and UX really stand out. Moneybird feels elegant, thoughtful, and human. It’s not just functional — it inspires confidence.

Even small things like navigation updates show that the team truly cares about experience, not just shipping features.

Edwin Vlieg (10:26)
That aligns closely with how we see ourselves. We started by serving freelancers and sole proprietors, but those businesses grow. They add accountants, teams, and more complexity — and we grow with them.

We also dogfood Moneybird ourselves. Even with millions in revenue and a large team, we still run our business entirely on Moneybird.

Product Strategy & Integrated Thinking

Edwin Vlieg (12:13)
We believe strongly in an integrated system. There’s nothing worse than creating invoices in one tool and sending PDFs to another system where the accountant works — completely disconnected.

We want entrepreneurs, accountants, and advisors to work in the same system, whether the business is small or large.

Team Structure & Shape Up

Jim Zarkadas (15:21)
How big is your product team?

Edwin Vlieg (15:35)
Roughly half the company — about 40 people. Designers and engineers work closely together. We have around 8–10 product designers.

Jim Zarkadas (16:21)
What does your product development process look like?

Edwin Vlieg (16:21)
We use the Shape Up methodology. We work in eight-week cycles: six weeks of project work and two weeks of cooldown.

Ideas start with framing. If they’re promising, they become pitches — usually shaped by a designer and an engineer together. Then we have a betting table where we decide priorities.

Teams are formed ad hoc for each project, balancing experts and people who want to learn. Usually it’s two or three engineers and one designer per project.

Rotation, Ownership & Quality

Edwin Vlieg (19:29)
We rotate team members intentionally. Fresh perspectives lead to better discussions, better architecture decisions, and better design.

We also have a support engineer track. If you know you might be fixing bugs next cycle, you’re more likely to ship quality work today.

Jim Zarkadas (21:29)
I love that. Fixing existing UX often requires more skill than designing from scratch.

Roadmaps, Feedback & Framing

Edwin Vlieg (30:01)
Everything starts with user feedback. In the early years, we did customer support ourselves. That taught us a lot.

Now, we scale feedback through support teams, UX researchers, surveys, speed dates, and framing boards. Not every idea gets shaped — framing helps us avoid wasting time on ideas that don’t align with our direction.

Edwin Vlieg (31:38)
Input comes from everywhere, but decisions happen in framing and shaping. That structure helps us stay focused.

AI at Moneybird

Jim Zarkadas (45:24)
Let’s talk about AI. How do you use it internally, and how does it affect the product?

Edwin Vlieg (46:07)
We’re cautious and pragmatic. AI helps with support — around 60–70% of customer questions are now handled by our chatbot, freeing the team to focus on complex issues.

We also use AI in development tools like Cursor and Cloud Code. It speeds things up, but it’s not replacing engineers.

Edwin Vlieg (48:27)
Accounting needs determinism and correctness. AI helps with things like invoice recognition and suggestions, but it’s always combined with rule-based systems.

MCP, APIs & Power Users

Edwin Vlieg (57:25)
We launched an MCP — an API connector that allows AI agents to interact with Moneybird. That opened up powerful use cases, like bulk invoice creation from spreadsheets or custom payment behavior reports.

It wasn’t hype-driven — it was a small engineering effort that unlocked huge flexibility for advanced users.

Favorite Products & Inspiration

Jim Zarkadas (1:03:25)
Last question — what’s your favorite SaaS product besides Moneybird?

Edwin Vlieg (1:03:32)
I’m inspired by 37signals and their open-source approach. I also love the terminal UI movement — tools like LazyGit or Cloud Code that focus on speed and efficiency.

It’s not always about flashy UI — sometimes it’s about mastering shortcuts and workflows.

Closing

Jim Zarkadas (1:10:54)
This was a fantastic conversation — thank you so much for your time and insights.

Edwin Vlieg
You’re welcome. Thanks for having me.