"What happened in your life that made you look for this tool?"

This one question changed how I think about copy.

Talia Wolf dropped this on the latest episode of Love at First Try — and I had to sit with it.

Talia has been doing conversion optimization for 13+ years. She built the Emotional Targeting methodology and runs GetUplift, an agency that's helped SaaS companies stop guessing and start converting.

I wanted her on because she's the person who taught me (through Chris Silvestri) that customers should write your copy — not you.

Most SaaS founders are "data-driven." They know their users' job titles, company size, location.

But they don't know why people actually buy.

So they default to talking about themselves. Features. Pricing. Technology. And their landing page sounds like every other SaaS in their space.

Talia's framework flips this. You stop optimizing elements and start solving emotional problems.

🧠 WHAT YOU'LL LEARN

0:00 - How Talia went from social media marketing to building the emotional targeting methodology

4:37 - The survey question that gets customers to write your copy for you

9:16 - Why "data-driven" companies still fail at conversion

13:35 - A landing page example that nails emotional resonance (Prompt Cowboy)

17:37 - How to do emotional targeting when you have multiple ICPs

25:33 - The "what would you miss" question that reveals what customers actually value

32:14 - Why retention problems are often research problems, not feature problems

44:29 - How to actually use AI for customer research without getting garbage

50:14 - Why buying decisions now happen off your website (Reddit, LinkedIn, communities)

58:36 - How CRO is changing in the age of AI and LLMs

💡 STEAL THESE QUICK WINS

→ Replace "why did you sign up?" with "what happened in your life that made you look for this?" This forces customers to tell you the trigger, not just the surface reason. You get emotional context, not "pricing" or "needed a tool."

→ Ask: "If you could no longer use this product tomorrow, what would you miss most?" Instead of "what do you like about us?" — this reframes around loss. People reveal what they actually depend on, not what sounds polite.

→ When using AI for research, demand quotes from your data Tell ChatGPT: "Support every claim with 5 direct quotes from this dataset." Otherwise it hallucinates patterns that don't exist.

→ Treat your homepage as a springboard, not a catch-all Different ICPs need different journeys. Let them self-select where to go next instead of trying to speak to everyone at once.

→ Optimize your narrative across the web, not just your website Buying decisions happen on Reddit, LinkedIn, YouTube. If you're not shaping the conversation there, you can't influence what AI tells buyers about you.

___

Introduction

Jim Zarkadas (00:00)
Hey, I’m Jim, and this is the Love at First Try podcast — a podcast for SaaS CEOs and developers who truly want to learn more about design and care about it, without design feeling overly complex.

In every episode, we discuss how to design products that become sticky and unforgettable. We dive into topics like taste, UX, growth, and conversions, and we share practical tips and frameworks you can apply in your development process.

Enough with the intro — let’s dive into today’s episode.

Guest Intro: From Social Media to Emotional Targeting

Jim Zarkadas (00:25)
Thank you for joining. We always start with a quick intro — where you started and how you ended up here.

Talia Wolf (00:47)
I started in a marketing agency running social media and paid campaigns — back when likes and comments were everything.

I kept wondering: are these campaigns actually impacting sales? That question led me into tracking and conversion optimization.

I started experimenting — changing headlines, CTAs, images — to see what increased conversions. Eventually I co-founded a conversion optimization agency.

Over time, I realized we were approaching things wrong. We were focused on tactics, not psychology. So we built a new framework: Emotional Targeting.

I’ve been using it for 13–14 years now. The core idea hasn’t changed: if you understand the emotional intent behind buying decisions, you can increase conversions and create better experiences.

Voice of Customer & Writing Better Copy

Jim Zarkadas (03:55)
I discovered your work through Chris Silvestri. One thing that stuck with me: “Customers should write the copy.”

We used one of your survey templates at KnowledgeOwl. It changed how I think about messaging.

As an engineer, marketing used to feel unpredictable. Emotional targeting gave me confidence — because it’s based on empathy and research, not guesswork.

Talia Wolf (07:02)
That’s exactly it. Without research, marketing feels like guessing.

With emotional targeting, every change is based on a hypothesis tied to a real problem.

Instead of “best practice says one CTA,” we ask: what’s stopping people from seeing this is for them?

You’re not optimizing elements. You’re solving emotional friction.

What Companies Get Wrong

Talia Wolf (09:23)
Companies that don’t use emotional targeting talk about themselves.

They know demographic data — but not why people buy.

So their pages focus on features, pricing, integrations.

Companies that do it well flip the lens. Every feature answers:
What does this mean for the customer?
Why should they care?
How does this help them feel or succeed?

Horizontal vs Vertical SaaS Messaging

Jim Zarkadas (15:04)
With vertical SaaS like ZenMaid, emotional targeting is easier. You know the ICP deeply.

With horizontal SaaS like KnowledgeOwl, it’s harder — multiple industries, roles, job titles.

Talia Wolf (17:50)
Even with multiple ICPs, emotional drivers are often similar.

Different roles want different things tactically — but emotionally, people want confidence, clarity, recognition, control.

The homepage becomes a springboard. Different segments go deeper into tailored journeys.

But the emotional promise can still unify them.

Asking Better Research Questions

Jim Zarkadas (25:12)
One survey question we use:
“What happened in your life that made you switch?”

It gets deeper answers than “Why did you sign up?”

Talia Wolf (27:24)
Exactly. “Why” gets surface answers.

“What happened?” gets the trigger story.

One of my favorite questions:
“If you could no longer use this product tomorrow, what would you miss most?”

That reveals real value — and emotional stakes.

Retention & Churn: Start With Behavior

Jim Zarkadas (30:16)
ZenMaid has churn after three months. We’re trying to understand why.

Talia Wolf (48:33)
First question: what are people doing in those three months that they stop doing later?

Sometimes churn isn’t about price or features — it’s about usage patterns.

Use product data + interviews. Ask:
Are you still doing this?
If not, what changed?

Sometimes it even changes your pricing model.

AI & Research

Talia Wolf (33:39)
AI can help analyze data — but you must constrain it.

Tell it:
Only use this dataset.
Support claims with direct quotes.

Otherwise, it hallucinates.

AI should amplify your thinking — not replace it.

Closing

Jim Zarkadas (1:01:06)
This was a great conversation. Thank you so much for joining.

Talia Wolf
Thanks for having me.